Welcome, everybody. We are really excited to have you in here. So just starting with introductions really quick. I am Michelle Weckman, and I will try to stay near this so that my voice doesn't keep going up and down. So I trained in the family med psych program at Iowa. So family med psych, and now I do hospice and palliative care work mostly. And my pronouns are she and her. Hi, everyone. I'm going to stand for those in the back. My name is Pooja Chadha. My pronouns are she and her. I'm from UC Davis School of Medicine in the Department of Psychiatry. I work in a county mental health clinic, and I'm a former Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Act APA fellow. Really a pleasure to be here. Hi, everybody. I'm Allison Lynch. My pronouns are she and her. I'm a family physician. I work in a mental health clinic. Hi, everyone. I'm Allison Lynch. My pronouns are she and her. I'm a family physician. I work in a mental health clinic. Hi, everybody. I'm Allison Lynch. My pronouns are she and her. I'm a family physician, psychiatrist, and addiction medicine specialist at the University of Iowa in Iowa City, Iowa. I'm a fellowship director for addiction medicine at the University of Iowa, and I also direct our addiction and recovery collaborative. Hi. I'm Shannon Suo. I am also a family physician and psychiatrist. I swear this is not a workshop for family physicians and psychiatrists. It's just kind of how we know each other. I'm a family physician. I work in a mental health clinic. I work in a mental health clinic. My pronouns are she and her. Hi, everybody. I'm Allison Lynch. My pronouns are she and her. I'm a family physician, psychiatrist, and addiction medicine specialist at the University of Iowa in Iowa City, Iowa. I'm also a family physician and psychiatrist. I swear this is not a workshop for family physicians and psychiatrists. It's just kind of how we know each other. I work at Lifestands Health doing primarily psychiatry, collaborative care efforts, and I also own and run my own business called Psych. And I think I was up on the stage yesterday a couple of times and attracted some of you hopefully to the workshop So welcome. Oh My pronouns are she and her So I'll just get started with some of the housekeeping stuff And just as a caveat as we go, there's a lot of different ways to talk about negotiations We are gonna talk a little bit less about negotiation styles today and a little bit more about just some general negotiation tips But at the end we will make sure you have access to a QR code so that you can look up your negotiating style because I think that is helpful to have I mean if we did a four-hour workshop We could get into real depth with that But in an hour and a half, there's just not enough time to do to do what we might like to do So we have no disclosures. I mean we have some disclosures, but they really mean nothing to this. I Do want to give some thanks to dr. Heather young We borrowed very heavily from a presentation she put together for this with her permission But she's the founding dean of the UC UC Davis Betty Irene Moore School of Nursing So from an objective standpoint we are gonna Review negotiation schools skills that we're going to practice negotiate some of those skills in a small group Triad setting then we're going to get together as a group and talk about that Then we're going to do a second exercise and Now we'll get to more of the meat of the matter So, what is negotiation? And remember, we're focused today on the interactive communicative process. And it can take place wherever we want. Actually, as we were trying to get things figured out, we were working with the audiovisual and negotiating if we could have a pointer. That's one example of negotiation here. And it's where there's a shared process. Someone gives, someone receives, and maybe there's more than one thing you're talking about. Okay? And just to highlight again, there is value in taking some time, we've got some resources at the end, in understanding yourself in depth. We're fast-forwarding to that communication itself and focused on that one interaction. So understanding yourself, we're going to have the details on this in just a little bit at the end in the form of a QR. But to summarize, at different times, in different interactions, you may have different degrees of these components of bargaining. So I'm going to go to extremes. The low assertive and low need for approval is considered conflict avoider style. And conflict avoider style is an example where that person may come across in a negotiation is very graceful, very pleasurable, and there is no issue, okay? That's kind of how they're received. On the other hand, if we go to the other extreme, collaborators have a high degree of assertiveness along with a high need of approval. In those situations, their investment is to focus on the tough engagement process to get a solution. They are willing to do that work in the relationship and they really value the relationship. Then you have the others. You have low assertiveness and high need for approval is the accommodator. Their goal, and in that situation, is to solve the other person's problem. That's where they really value solving the other person's problem. Then on the other hand, the high assertiveness and low need for approval is competitor, which is where the goal is to win. Does that summarize it in a nutshell? Then you've got the compromiser, which has a combination of all. I think it would be amiss to say that you are one of these all the time. When you do the assessment tool, which we'll provide at the end, we're going to focus our time on interacting with each other. When you do the assessment tool at the end, you'll see what smattering you have with these. It's also important to understand who you're working with and what their style is. Understanding all of them has a lot of value. The compromiser themselves actually want to close the gap between both views and both intentions. I'm going to talk about a couple of concepts, one right now and one in a little bit, that are useful to think about when you're preparing for a negotiation. The first we call storm shift. Basically a storm shift is when the tension rises, you maybe feel more stressed. Many people notice a change in just their emotions or their reactions. For example, you may find that when things get stressful, you maybe get defensive or maybe you get really focused and really quiet and you become a better listener. Storm shift isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's not necessarily a good thing. It's more just many people notice that when things get stressful, their thinking or their emotions can change. It's important to have some self-awareness about that. Partly because if this is something that aids you in negotiation, you're going to want to use that. On the other hand, if the way you respond when things start getting stressful is not helpful to you to achieve your negotiation goals, then you're going to want to figure out a way to mitigate that. There's a lot of different ways to better understand how you respond to stress in a negotiation. Things like just self-reflection or asking other people that have been in a negotiation with you to give you some feedback or practicing what is your goal? How do you want to respond when things start getting stressful? Practice it so that you feel more skilled at that. That's just one of the concepts we want you to think about as we move forward in the presentation. There's parts of negotiation and you want to make sure you do it all. The first is preparation. That includes many things. Have you slept good? Have you eaten a meal? We were encouraging some others who are coming in to model that. Exchanging information is another portion of that. Opening and concession, looking at bargaining. We've got some information on really thinking that through as part of your preparation. Then there's closing and commitment, which can also be summarizing what was just said, sending that follow-up email to make sure you have your understanding correct, and also there's some written dialogue. I want to go back to the preparation. I'd be amiss if I didn't include a little bit of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Specifically, when you're preparing, be mindful of the power differentials. There are power differentials at play in who you're engaging with and maybe anticipating what they may also want. We'll have more on that on other sessions, but today we're going to focus on that communication. Feel free to approach us after about the power differential resources. Understanding your bargaining style. We saw that table earlier. Understanding goals, yours, theirs, and maybe the departments, if you're doing a department or the clinic that you're in. Then authoritative standards, principles, but also the powers within those, relationships and reciprocity. What can I give? What's a low-stakes thing for me that they really value that I can get my high-stakes thing that I really value and make it a win-win? How does that really come to fruition? Then we look at the interests. Self-interest and also self-esteem is something really to be mindful of, and I really appreciate what Allison was saying about monitoring our own counter-transference in the room. That's something we can all relate to. And then leverage. Sometimes we have a fear of losing things or actually a fear of not getting what we want. If you're from a trauma-informed background, it may also be fear of getting exactly what you want. So let's just throw it out there and be messy. So we want you to develop your negotiation plan. Identify your issues in a group or in roles. Role play with someone you trust who's going to give you real feedback. Prioritize and set your targets. There are more than one. It's not just money. It's the other things that may improve your quality of life. Prioritize and then think of your bargaining chips. Think of the deal-breakers. It's also okay that sometimes we don't have a solution and we can walk away. Develop your positioning story. What is my stance? And if I can fall back on that stance, I think of it as like a one-liner. If they were going to remember this conversation, what's my one-liner that I want them to take home? Then anticipate the likely response and have your start, your middle, and how you want to finish, no matter what. It's also okay to walk away and decide later. Okay. So the other concept that I wanted to share with you before we move forward is called BATNA. And who here has heard of BATNA? Okay. So there are some hands up. So BATNA stands for Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement. This comes from a book called Getting to Yes by Roger Fisher and some of his colleagues from 1991, which was a book about negotiating and coming to resolution. And basically what your BATNA is, it's like sort of your bottom line or your backup plan. It's what are you going to do? At what point are you going to have if your negotiations come to an impasse? And a BATNA is something that you want to have thought about before you go into the negotiation. So it's part of your preparation. It's also part of sort of establishing what your goals are. And you could have more than one BATNA. There's nothing wrong with that. A BATNA needs to be realistic. It needs to be something that potentially you could happen. But it's really, if you can't get to an agreement, you know what you're walking away with. And it might be, if you're trying to negotiate for a new job, your BATNA or one of your BATNAs might be staying in your current job. You need to know what your alternative, your backup plan is. So you know when to say, I'm not going to stop negotiating. I'm not willing to settle for what we have been able to agree on. I'm going to stick with what I have. Or it might be a different job that you're looking at. It's basically, you want to just know where you need to stop trying to negotiate and accept that that particular negotiation is not getting you where you want to get because you have another option that you're going to go with. To develop your BATNA, you can make a list of all of your options and maybe prioritize them, kind of compare them. A BATNA can be, I think of it as broad. So a BATNA is not going to be just one thing about a particular job that you want. It's not like, for example, your salary. You're going to think about like all the different things that could be woven together into an agreement that you'd be willing to accept. Like if you think about salary, if you think, well, I want this salary, but I'd be willing to settle for a little bit less salary if I get some other things in exchange. I think the main thing about having this plan, because like I said, it's part of your goal setting and goal identification, it's also part of preparation, is that when you go into a negotiation and you know what your BATNA is or what your backup plan, where you're going to draw the line. It can give you confidence. It can just make you feel less stressed about the negotiation, because you know at what point you're going to walk away and say, I'm going to just accept this other option that I have, or the current situation that I'm in. It can also be really helpful to think about what's the other person's botna? What's really important to them, and at what point are they going to draw the line and say they're not willing to negotiate anymore? Because if you can understand what their botna is, you might be able to really carve out a good agreement that meets their top priority or is better than their botna, and also yours. So it can be helpful to think about it from both sides. If I can just add one real-world example to that. When I joined the university some 15 years ago, my chair invited me to his office, he gave me this offer. I had a great job that I was in. I was very happy at that job. I hadn't considered leaving, but he was offering me a great opportunity and said, but I don't think we can pay you as much as you're making now. I'm thinking, okay, so this is a great job, but isn't paying as well as I'm in now, where I have a really good job that I enjoy and be very comfortable. So in reality, that was my botna. I didn't recognize it at the time. I said, you've given me a lot to think about. I really want to take some time. I have some allegiance to this company. I went home. He had told me the salary was not negotiable. That night, he emailed me and offered me $10,000 more. It's all about negotiation, right? I think that's an important point, is taking time. These negotiations typically shouldn't happen just in one day because things change. So speaking of things changing, we're going to change things up. We have all been, well, I don't know about you, but I've been sitting all day, it feels like. So we're going to give you a chance to move around. I'm going to say I am beyond thrilled. There are more people in this room than we expected. So what we're going to do, just to give you a little heads up, is we're going to work through a potential negotiation between a faculty member and an admission committee chair who wants to get that faculty member on their committee to help out. So what we're going to do is actually divide into three groups. We're going to spend a little bit of time in your group, so groups A, B, and C, sort of reflecting on what we're doing. And then we're going to break out into triads, and you guys are going to get to practice negotiation with somebody observing. One of the things I want you to think about is maybe something, if you're one of the active participants, group person A or B, you want that observer to watch for. So maybe you want them to watch your body language. Maybe you want them to look for a specific bargaining style. Maybe you want them to watch and see if you've had one of those storms. Have your emotions been shifting? Maybe you want them to look for concessions. Just sort of think about that. So what we're going to do now is hand out the sheets that we have to divide you guys into groups. I suspect I didn't make enough copies, and so we have some QR codes for people who will divide the sort of last people up right at the end, or unless people are sort of choosing their own from the back. I like that. And so there's script A, B, and C, and you don't want to share your script with the other person in your group. And the C person gets both scripts, because they get to observe things. So they see both sides of the argument. OK. All right. So as you're ready, we're going to have a little bit of organization as best we can. Yes. There we go. We're going to have everybody link up. So now A, B, and Cs. We've got slightly fewer Cs, but pick a row for your triad of A, B, C. A row of chairs. There you go. So some A, B pairs will have a C, and some will not. Not every group will have a C. A C is an angel when we get them. All right. As you can see, you can get the QR code, or you can just read this. It all gets pretty fine. So you're the observer, which is perfect, on how the negotiation's going to go. Yes. Yeah. So if you haven't already, quickly introduce yourself to your team and be like you're meeting for the first time for this negotiation. It's sounding like a lot of groups are done with their negotiation and doing some debrief. So we'll give you, like, maybe two more minutes for the groups that are still working on the negotiation. All right, y'all. The speaking is awesome. We're just going to interrupt to say keep talking, but make sure you touch on what could go wrong in reality. And take a minute to share with each other. Make sure everybody in the group has given feedback, too. So what could go wrong in this negotiation? What have you seen before? And maybe troubleshoot with each other for a couple minutes. All right. I love this energy. You guys are so engaged. OK. So within your groups, you've probably debriefed a bit. We're just hoping that maybe some of you can share some of that feedback with us about what happened. We can see if there's. Hello. Clap once if you can hear me. Clap twice if you can hear me. She has younger kids than I do. So we're hoping that you can share with the group, share with us some of the pearls that you took away from this exercise. It seemed like everybody was pretty engaged. I know everybody loves a role play. And you find it really helpful, but hard to get started. So please, share with us. So my group was very collaborative. And we realized at the end that that isn't necessarily very realistic. And so how realistic was this role play if both were trying to be collaborative and consider each other, as opposed to one coming and thou shalt join the committee, and then having to work with that as a more realistic dynamic. So we don't have an answer, but that's one thing we noticed. Did you try to do the what if things go wrong scenario? That's when we came up with that as a maybe this wasn't so realistic, because maybe it would be a different power dynamic, and that would be more of a challenge. For sure. OK. Other groups? Different experiences? Just going off of what was said, I think that there's also so many other factors. If this was in real life, gender roles, things like that. Let's say it was a male chair with a young female associate professor. So I think there's so much more to consider, versus maybe a different thing than what we did. And I think for trainees and stuff, I just like I'm a resident right now. And I feel like there's so many situations where you're voluntold to do things that you're like, I really don't have time for this. In our residency, we have these boot camp lectures for interns. And we're like, I have so much to do, but they just tell us to do these random lectures, which is really hard. So I feel like this was a really good experience to be able to role play as well. Yeah? So one of the things for our group that it brought up for me is I'm still early career. And I'm evolving from coming from the residency, where you didn't really have much of a choice, necessarily, all the time. The voluntold word, right? And now to realize that I can ask for things. And I mean, that's why we're here today. So that was bringing up some stuff for me. I found when I was interacting with Vy, when she shared that she's worried, well, if you don't help me with this work, I'm going to have to do all of this. And understanding the perspective of each party, I wish there was more transparency in a negotiation to understand that. Because I think that would be kind of helpful. It might not change my no, but maybe there's another way I could be helpful. Absolutely. So one of the first questions for the faculty members, like work home priorities. And I think with women, a lot of the average woman might be like a working mom. And in my role play, I was a working mom. And I think one of the questions I asked was, will there be empathy if I have an emergency at home? And a lot of times, my chairman was like, yes. But I believe that, yes, it was because she was a woman. But in the what could go wrong, a lot of times in real life, that empathy doesn't exist. And sometimes when you say no, they could also be bullying. Even though they say, oh, there's no consequence for saying no, it could be like, OK, well, they will start treating you some type of way because, oh, you were offered this, and you should be grateful. But you had the guts to say no. And these are just some things that could go wrong in real life. OK. So obviously, we specifically targeted this workshop for women, people that identify as women. And we really appreciate the presence of our male colleagues. There is certainly nothing in here that is specific to women. There's no secrets here that we're keeping from men. We, we, we, this workshop actually started, it was originated by Dr. Young and taught to me by Dr. Young because a lot of women say they don't have experience. They don't feel like they've been taught how to negotiate or that they should negotiate more of societal norms, which are evolving, right? But there's this inherent bias already in women, towards women. So that's particularly why we brought this, this workshop forward. OK. So thank you. Did you want to? So a couple of things that I was just trying to track. One was that there is a degree of power that we're really focusing on the play. And sometimes if you are high risk, maybe you're a trainee and you've got a lot to lose because they're also your evaluators, there may be a pre-negotiation that takes place with your training director who then goes to talk with somebody higher so that you don't have to carry all the weight. But strategizing on that and being aware of it, or a group of trainees going together with the same issue has more power. So if you feel low power, think about it ahead. There could be champions that are willing to sponsor or help you. That was the first thing. So there's the pre-negotiation also. Or if someone has the ear of the person you're going to negotiate with, it's OK if you're OK with it to have a good word put in. Hey, this is coming. And then preemptively adding that space for transparency. Maybe they can leave the pitch of what your bottom line is or what your premise is or your principles. And then I want to add in that there's other lives. Are you a caregiver? Are you the birthing parent or the non-birthing parent? Do you need leave for various reasons? And really factoring that in. Lastly, we want to be mindful if there's someone who approaches us for help for negotiation, people will approach all of you. We want to be thoughtful of what is at stake for this person. There's also intersectionality where things stack on top of each other for an individual going for negotiation. We are here because we have some privilege in some way, shape, or form. The fact that we can fly to a conference means that we can share something with someone else who feels lower power. So I just want to empower all of you for that too. Okay. So, I just want to go over a few tips for bargaining our negotiation, and I suspect some of these came up in your practice negotiation, and a couple of things came up just when people stood up afterwards. So, negotiations don't have to pit one person against the other. They do sometimes devolve into that, but I think in an ideal circumstance, and when you have some of that power to establish how the communication is going to go, it can be great when it's really two people that are working together to come to a mutually acceptable outcome. I think it can help to approach a negotiation with that mindset that it could go to a communication that's really about two people working together, trying to find something that they both agree on. I think when there's a lack of transparency, and a lot of power differentials, and unrealistic goals, it can devolve into more pitting against each other, but it doesn't have to be that way, and it shouldn't be that way. So, just creating some space for negotiations to be something where two people are working on a sculpture together and coming up with a good outcome that everybody is happy with. It also, it does really help to approach the negotiation with a clear idea of what you do want, and what matters to you, and also what you're willing to give up on, or willing to negotiate on, or willing to not get. You can think about whether you want to make the first offer, or not make the first offer. If the other person makes the offer first, people don't usually start with the last thing that they're willing to negotiate on. They usually put an offer on the table that they feel like, well, I could give up some of this, or I could go a little bit higher up on the salary or something. So, the person who goes first, you can usually, when you get that first offer, you can assume that there's some room to negotiate, or wiggle, or adjust. So, that's the advantage of letting the other person make the offer first. That's not the only way to do it, but that's one way. There is some advice that it's not a great idea to accept the first offer though, partly because just assume that there's some room for negotiation, but also people expect you to negotiate. So, when you get an offer, counter offer, or at a minimum, take some time to think about it, but ask for a little bit more. Ask for something else, because that's part of how these go. They're intended to be back and forth. Both parties are saying, I want this, or can I have that, or I'll give you this if I get that kind of a thing. So, don't ever just accept after the first offer. Then, on the other hand, be willing to make trade-offs. Especially if you are making the first offer, have there be something in there that you're willing to let go of, so that you can make a trade-off, and it can be that back and forth, mutually working together to negotiate to get that agreement. Okay. Then, as far as salary negotiation, just some good points to think about would be understanding the market. If you're asking for a salary increase to your current salary, you may, and you've been working in your role for a while, and you've talked with your colleagues, and you have a good sense of what other people are making, and you may be pretty well-informed. But on the other hand, if you are moving to a new place, you don't know anybody in the department, or in the office, and you really may not have a lot of information about what everyone else's salary is like. So, you're going to want to try to find some objective information about average salaries. There are a number of different resources you can use. There's MGMA has salaries. You can get these on Doximity. AAMC posts average salaries based on specialty, geography, or location, years of experience. Yes. Whether it's academics or not academics, different reference points. So, it's just empower yourself to have some kind of information about what is a realistic or what the range is. Then, it's really important to think broadly because salary is really important, and it often ends up being the summary. When somebody is talking about their job offer, but there's so many other ways that we can be valued through our, and be in compensated for our work. So, when you're thinking about your BATNA, or thinking about that negotiation, what's really important? What are you willing to negotiate on, or give up, or trade for one thing or another? Think about things like retirement package, vacation time, call coverage, bonuses, opportunities to moonlight, or get paid for extra work, office space, lab space, support staff, spending account for education, or travel, or attending conferences like this, parking, working from home, or the option to do virtual work. All of those things may be things that you can roll into some kind of agreement. Like you might not be able to get quite the salary that you were aiming for, but if you can get another week of vacation, or the opportunity to get paid for weekend call, or something like that, it still might come up to be something that you're really happy with, and that the other party is also happy with, and able to do, and has the resources to provide for you. I think the other, I've mentioned this earlier, but not accepting right on the spot. Again, you want to just take the time to process, think about this option, compare it with your BATNA, compare it with any other options, and also make sure that you've done your due diligence in negotiating. Oftentimes, we treat negotiations as some kind of state secret, and that's often a culture that's encouraged within departments, within a particular clinic. It doesn't have to be, unless you've signed some kind of NDA, talk with other colleagues, try to share information, try to help each other, talk with other colleagues in other areas. Again, trying to understand what is your worth, what are the options other people may have thought to ask for and what are the things that you would find helpful, but never thought to ask for. When you're thinking about if you're going to make the first offer, or if you're going to negotiate to give something up in exchange for something else that you think is more important, you have to know what is the most important thing, what is the least important thing. This is where it's really helpful to also know what are the priorities, or try and guess at least, what are the priorities for the other party, what are the most important things they need fulfilled, because if it's something that's easy for you to give up to fulfill that, that's going to be worth more to them, so that maybe they'll give you something that's higher up on your priority list. Go in knowing what your worth is, go in knowing what your walkaway point is. Again, in my example, it wasn't even so much a walkaway point, I just asked for some time to think about it, and got a better offer unintentionally. Didn't know anything about negotiating at the time. We just said, try and get the other party to make the first offer. There's two sides to this. Sometimes it may be helpful for you to make the first offer, especially if you know you have something unique that is going to fulfill a need for that other person and something that is going to be really valuable to them, especially maybe something they don't know about. It can be helpful for you to lead with that and then make your offer. Don't counter too low. I think Dr. Lynch already covered that pretty well. Then just the research has shown that actually counter offers make both parties more satisfied because they feel like they both gained something, they both gave something up, and so it wasn't so much like an I won as, yeah, we both won a bit, we both lost a bit. I mentioned this yesterday that we swim in a relatively small pond. This meeting has 10,000 of us here. Chances are you have run into at least one or more colleague that you know at this meeting. It's a small pond. So think about in your negotiation, you don't want to burn bridges. You don't want to smack talk somebody else, another colleague, throw them under the bus so that you look better, because things turn around, things come up again as you are going to see in a few minutes with our next role play. You also got to think about your reputation moving forward. You want people to know you as someone who's principled, who doesn't lie, cheat, steal to get what you want or throw people under the bus. Your reputation, your influence is going to be important moving forward in your career as well. There are always politics. I left academics a few years ago. There are a lot of politics. There's still politics in my company too. There's even a little bit of politics in my little four physician company that we run together, two married couples. My husband likes to tell everybody he is the very silent partner. Then look to expand the pie. People think of the pie as being salary, vacation time. But maybe there's different things that can be added to the pie. The parking space, child care, a cappuccino machine, I don't know. A specific clinic you may want to work in. So think creatively and not so concretely about just numbers. Admin time. Okay. So now we're going to work into a second role play where the shoe is going to be a little bit flipped. We're going to ask you to get back into your original triads or diads for this. We're going to give you guys the choice to pick your role. So if the C observer wants to actually take an active role, flip with somebody else, flip with your A or your B. So we have some paper handouts. So get back into your triads and diads. It's okay to push yourself because there's not many opportunities that we get to practice. So this is our opportunity. All right. Y'all stay in your groups, but break this case. Make it real. What goes wrong? If it feels artificial, just make it real and give each other feedback on how it went. All right. We're going to ask you-all to shift and join the larger group again. Bring your conversations to the larger group. We want to get you out on time. Thank you so much. So can we advance this slide? She wants to slide. Oh, I have it. Okay. So what was that like? Can anyone share? I saw some. Let's put some words to that. What was it like? It does take time. Sometimes the negotiation has actually happened before you actually go to the negotiation meeting, right? Like it's in the elevator, it's at a party, and then you just finish it up at the meeting, right? Yeah. Sometimes it's who you know. Do you want to repeat the comments for the people in the room? So the comment was, we didn't get to the negotiation. It was all about clarifying the job role. We didn't get to the contract and money. So then our response was, it takes time and sometimes it's happening when it's not even expected. Yeah. Others? I saw some others ready to comment. Any light bulb moments, realizations about yourself? Yeah. Whichever you prefer. Yeah. Well, we came in with the roles already assumed as far as the job, but I found a lot of it was dancing around the income, because neither of us really wanted to say the number at first. And so finally, the applicant was like, oh, well, how much is it going to be? So I was like, okay, now the ball's in my court, and that's a very concrete answer. But for, I would say, three or four volleys, it was like open-ended, like, okay, what are expectations? Like, what are people around here? And so finally, it was a very direct question, and I felt, okay, now I have to answer. So I think that was kind of an aha moment as far as, okay, an applicant, those direct cans was good, and I definitely won the low ball side. But that's kind of a good way to also think about how the other side is looking at the problem. Great. Anybody notice any storm shifting? Yes, come on up, come up. Just a thought, yeah, right. Our group were really nice in negotiating, and that's one of the things we reflected, is that, is it really this collaborative and really nice? But it worked really well. The recruiter was very open and came across very genuine, very direct, and tell me what you need, and we'll make it work. But it turned out she had all of these things in her negotiating armament that she didn't give away at all, not one bit. She just looked really real. And the person A, who was going for the job, asked for four months off, which seemed like a huge amount. And she said, oh yeah, because I knew I would have to bargain back from that. But none of us knew that. We all thought, what? Yeah, it worked really well, cool. So should we have some plants in here? Because we are, in general, collaborative people, right? Should we have plants in the future that are real competitors? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give some rules that specify. Yeah, right, we can do that. So I had a question. If you have a female that is like a mother, would that work against you if you're kind of mentioning that you have a family? And depending, I mean, we're kind of discussing whether you have a male or a female who's interviewing you. If giving information about your family that you may need to spend the work-life balance, would that have an impact? So I will say, legally, it is not supposed to. Okay. Bias, unconscious and otherwise, sometimes, yes. One thing we didn't explicitly talk about it, though, I think is that the information we've given you is from the philosophy of what's called principled negotiation. So principled negotiation means that you are being honest. You are not misrepresenting yourself. You are not trying to do something bad to someone else. That being said, sometimes, revealing why you need something, not right off the bat, but if it seems to be a bone of contention, can be helpful because there may be alternative solutions to your problem. So as an easy example, if you're asking for a higher salary because you have to pay a nanny and, actually, the department offers discounts on childcare, that solved your problem. So in that case, revealing that that's the reason why could be helpful to your negotiation. As far as the possible bias, though, about, oh, this is somebody who's gonna be taking off maternity leave or missing more work because they have to take care of their kids, that is something that's really hard to control for. And there's unspoken preferences in different groups. So one parent might be higher valued than another parent for all sorts of unspoken reasons. Yeah, definitely. Other thoughts? Yeah? Yeah, question. When do you know, when can you determine you're getting information and then you're negotiating? Because I find that you're getting information, getting information, and then you'll be negotiating. So, and the second question is, when you do give, like at some point, I just figured I'll give the number, they know the number, and if they can't give the number, then, so, and then I regret it as well. Should have not do that. So how do you pull back? Can you pull back? No. Did you invent time travel? I think, yes, negotiation is always kind of bi-directional. You are always gathering information while you're negotiating, and I think that's a really good point. I think that's something you wanna be aware of. You know, you may get facts, but you also may get just kind of verbal or non-verbal feedback from them about how palatable something that is important to you is to them. Yeah, I don't really know that I have, I guess, you know, if you started off and made the first offer and then realized, wow, I could have asked for a lot more. I mean, you can try saying, asking for more, or maybe add in other things besides, like assuming we're talking salary and they readily accept your first offer of salary and you realize, oh, I should have asked for more. I mean, that might be a time to at least think about what other things can you pull into the negotiation to add value to you that might not be just the salary, which you might have already lost, you know, like kind of given up on or already agreed on something. And I'm gonna say, we mentioned at the beginning, practice. For whatever reason, we don't practice negotiating before we walk into a high-stakes negotiation. There is nothing wrong with, as a resident finding your mentor, or as a sort of peer-to-peer saying, hey, I'm going into a tough conversation or a conversation that I'm nervous about. Would you do me a favor and would you play, you know, the department chair and let me sort of throw things off and practice with you? Practice helps, it really does. And I'll just add to that. It's okay to be informed, trauma-informed. I work in a department that the previous leadership was traumatizing and many of us are still recovering. But also, you may have had lived experiences before coming to this department or group. So check in and those you're working with, understanding that. Some of the things that have helped heal, it's still a long journey for our department and hopefully my department chair is okay with me saying that. If not, I'll ask for apologies. Another couple things. She's really, so she is a department chair and she is also very transparent about, look, this is what I need. If you have a problem, bring me a potential solution too. That's what I need. So she's very transparent about that. And then there's also our state has transparent California salaries for all state employees, which many academics have. So that's one way. And then also our department has gone one step further and said, based on your tier, here's the other people in that tier, here's what they're earning. And that is a wonderful way of healing and when it comes to just salary itself. But if you have experienced trauma, it really is important to give some space and weight to that. Get the support you need. And if you feel like the power differential's too high, it's okay to have stages of negotiation. Somebody go in and say something positive for you before that conversation even starts. I do wanna pick up on something that the person who asked the question said. I think the idea is that you were just gathering some information and all of a sudden you found yourself in a negotiation for which you were not prepared. And so you felt cornered to throw a number out. Be aware of that. And if you find yourself entering a negotiation for which you are not prepared, just say that. I was not ready to have this conversation. I'd like some time to think about it before I provide you with an answer. That is always appropriate. Or a great question. Can I get back to you? Yeah? This is not necessarily about this role play, but in general, and I'm not sure if this is true across the case academic centers, but I know, at least what I've heard from my colleagues who are finishing their fellowship and are joining the faculty there, our contracts are not incredibly explicit as far as where you're working, what you're doing, what that all looks like. And I guess I'm a little bit curious about, is that detail in writing something to negotiate for? And if they're not putting it in the contract, are there other ways you can protect yourself? So you can ask to have it put in the contract. And if they won't do that, make sure they give it to you in an email. Because then you can go back to them later and say, this was our agreement. Help me understand why I'm not doing what we agreed upon. Yeah. Always get it in writing. Yeah. If it's not written down, did it happen? And so, just wanna make sure we give this resource before time's out. This is if you wanna figure out what bargaining style you have. The key in this, answer sincerely. You may have what you want to answer, and it's okay to answer sincerely, and then explore if you need to invoke other styles in different situations, what it would take. And FYI, we promise we are going to upload the slides to APA. So you will have the slide deck. I know everybody's been taking pictures, and maybe that's your preferred style of managing it. But they will be with the APA hopefully shortly. The QR code you have right there is a chapter which we are using because we are not being paid for this. So we're using academic freedom here to distribute it to you. But it'll allow you to take the survey, which in an ideal world you would have done before the workshop, but in 90 minutes, we don't have time for that. And we tried to do it in 2019, and tell people to do it ahead of time, and nobody did it ahead of time. Yeah. So, should we just open it up for questions? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so these are contact information. Please reach out to us. We're all listed in the APA app too. So we should be there. We had a session where we negotiated all of us having it on there. Please feel free to reach out. Yeah. I just wanted to offer a couple of things, especially for new residents that are going to be using the negotiating person contract. One is, I use an employment attorney to look through my contracts, and it comes in a bunch of boxes, and it's well worth the money. In fact, when I went back to do more negotiations, the person that was trying to hire me said, you could have been a lawyer in another life. I was like, shut up. So, that's one thing. And then the other thing is, as I was going through the process of applying for a training position, I applied for a lot of positions within the organization that I was currently training, and I had some positions that I specifically would not apply for, because I knew that I didn't want to work for the person who was a supervisory role there. And then I had a couple who, like one of the persons was one of the supervisors I really, really wanted to work with, but that position obviously seemed to be really less money. And I ended up going with a position where my boss paid more, and it was the right choice, and it was a really good first job. But I remember feeling really disappointed about not being able to work with that person. Your manager, your supervisor, like those people have so much influence on what your work day-to-day is gonna look like. And so, it wasn't that the gap in the salary was so significant, it wasn't worth it, but I would have worked for him for less money, if it had just been a little bit less, because that was somebody who I knew would be supportive and to guide me in my work. So, anyway, I just wanted to share that. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Just to build off of what you're saying, sometimes you can be transparent about that. Hey, I could stay, but this is my, this is what I got to have to stay and be happy and to retain me. Can we meet there? And maybe a little higher than you're going for, right? And not to be negative, but people leave institutions all the time, so you have to be a little careful if you're taking a job because you wanna work with a specific person. And it's ever since we've been here. Yeah. They leave all the time, right? Maybe they'll come to the place you're at. Well, ironically, I left the first job and then took the outpatient job, but I got a lateral salary. And then, but I got to be in that role with that person for a year. Very nice. And that brings up a good point about staying in the place where you trained. That's a whole thing we can process later. But if that is your preference, if that is your intention, still look outside. Have a BATNA that is outside of the institution so that you can compare and you can provide that potentially as counter. That's taking back your power in this situation. Yeah. I have a question about that. If you're working outside of campus, would that role ideally be an academic role or would it be a part-time job? I'm sorry. Part-time job. Yeah. Part-time job. You are the commander-in-chief of your life. So the question was, does it have to be academic? And the answer is no. People do leave academics and come back. It has happened. And we've heard testimony of that too. I'm going the other way. Yeah. All right. I think we are at time. Yep. We're over time. We're past time. Yes. Wow. Thank you.

negotiation skills

medical field

role-playing exercises

BATNA

power dynamics

biases

work-life balance

negotiation styles

professionalism